Recently was asked if my family doesn't identify as dom and sub, how do we identify? I know I just got advice on etiquette but since there are, what, four followers? I'll point out that it was Greengirl, because we probably are all going to know that. It's a very good question, and in fact the major reason I'm here. I don't know how to identify. Thus the name of the blog "What the..." And the address, "But then how..."
Understand, I like lables. I know that's wholly politically incorrect in "The lifestyle", and I plain don't give a damn. I'm certain I mentioned this before, but I'll reiterate that I was involved in D/s for a long time. I've wanted a relationship where the man leads and the woman supports as long as I can remember. I think men should be men and women should be ALLOWED to be feminine if they choose. I have no argument with the most butch dyke out there, I just don't want to date her, and I don't want her running down my Ladies for liking frilly girl things and wanting to please me. In fact as a man I'm not going to allow it, because as a man I CAN NOT allow it. See how that works? Lable!
I want to know what we are. And from there what I should do about it to make life as good as it can possibly be for all of us. I like this, not that, the Ladies like this and not that. What does that make us, and what else fits into that? And where and how do I then go get it?
When I enlisted in the military, I did it for all kinds of reasons. But one of those reasons was I wanted to live my life by a certain code, being required to meet certain minimum standards. I was taught to respect the military by men that served in WWII. The military had the reputation of being made up of people that were honorable, selfless, dedicated, and committed. People that had that code. It turned out not to be exactly so. D/s was the same. I had been exposed as a fairly young teen, again when I was not quite 20, and I was told it was all based on honor, chivalry, commitment to your partner, and commitment to a high personal standard that had to be maintained or there would be consequences from this little self contained community. Instead I found a place where people use the desires and hopes of others to manipulate each other. Where physical abuse is supposedly not if the submissive who suffered it offered some kind of blanket agreement "To do anything". A promise that seems always to have been given to someone the submissive felt safe trusting that much because they genuinely believed that person would never hurt them. They believed they were safe offering such unconditional trust because the other person would value their safety and well being as much (Or even more than) they themselves did. And let's not forget that it's a place where almost anything can be excused because "I like them". You know what I mean, "I know he or she does this or that, but I LIKE them" as if that has any relevance at all. It's a place where when the standards are clearly broken YOU are the bad guy if you point that out. Instead you are supposed to look the other way because it's none of your business, at least not now.
I really don't mind being called "Dom", except that the "Well respected dominants" I've seen are more often than not just self-centered jackasses more interested in image management and getting laid than their submissive's well being or living up to the high standards they claim all dominants have to meet. I don't think either of the Ladies has any problem with being called submissive, except for the two-faced lying bitch submissives they've seen who pretend to be perfect little obedient SLAVE girls when their partner is in the room, and then deride and insult him or her behind their backs when they aren't, all the while suggesting to my Ladies that if I never find out they disobeyed my wishes it doesn't count. So basically, that's where we are.
Just today I heard a radio program discussing that because of the current American culture, in high school they are teaching students that a healthy relationship means the people involved are happy to be in the relationship. There's all kinds of things involved in that according to the class that I'm not going to go into, but I think at the core that's exactly right. If you're happy to be in your relationship, it's probably a good and healthy one. I am happy in a relationship where I am looked to to set the tone and lead the way, and the Ladies are happy in a relationship where they express their needs and desires and are offered guidance on how to meet them, or simply have them met outright. Where our roles are clearly defined and are gently enforced. ALL our roles, not just theirs. What we are NOT interested in is "Fair" or "Equal". If things turn out equal, great. But if we're all happy, equal is kind of irrelevant. Fair is a point of view. Nothing anywhere is ever completely fair from all possible points of view. It's a waste of time to fight that.
So, I'm looking for that lable. I would like to find it so I can gain a better self understanding, a better understanding of the Ladies so I can take better care of them, and maybe we can find a community of actually like minded people. People I can respect instead of tolerate. So, at any point, anyone that thinks they can define me please do so. Don't be shy or feel uncomfortable that's why I'm here, to hear your opinions.
11 comments:
So, I'm not quite sure if I'm being upbraided or not here. I didn't mean any disrespect with my question. I'm sure that I don't know the implications of the established/traditional labels you refer to, certainly not in the way in which you describe things.
I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with any actual, real, live D/s community. I have had email contact with a few people whom I have never met, and I have read - some books, some blogs, some other online resources. And I very much pick and choose what I accept, what I ponder, and what I choose to dismiss out of hand. Even if I wanted to just "go with the accepted dogma" where would I find that?
Sorry, MC.
It's gonna take more than two comments and four posts before I label you! Not gonna trick ME into one of those general sweepingizations, no sir.
You'll just have to wait for it... :-)
Greengirl,
Let me say immediately that I had no intention of upbraiding or chastising you in any way, and if I gave you the impression I was doing so I sincerely apologize. I only meant that after the clear advice I was given on posting etiquette I wasn't sure what to do in this case. The advice was if the post I was referencing was good I should credit it, if I WAS going to chastise someone's ideas I should probably NOT make a point of whose, and if it was a neutral situation then it didn't really matter. I would say this post fell into the neutral category. I was basically just expanding on my own answer, but it was to your question. So far there are literally 4 people following, and it seemed a little weird NOT to credit you because I imagine every single reader read your question and my answer, but it also seemed a little over-the-top to really make it a point that I was specifically addressing your particular question because I imagine every single reader read your question and my answer, and it would be obvious where the post came from. I didn't mean to offer any opinion on the question itself, other than to point out that it seemed to me to be completely valid. A couple of the folks here were invited and asked specifically to offer opinions about my thoughts, everyone else here is welcome and appreciated but they found their way here of their own volition. I think those invited were clearly made aware that I was inviting their opinions, everyone else might not have understood that I was specifically hoping to hear others opinions and I wanted to encourage everyone to speak. The more I thought about your question, the more I thought it appropriate to explain why I'm looking for a different definition. Why not just call myself dom and be done with it? I don't generally make things any harder or more complicated than they have to be. So, that was intended to be my answer.
I think I should also say to those who identify as dom or sub, I meant no offense to anyone here , and I don't believe everyone who identifies as one or the other fits the descriptions I offered. In fact if I thought someone did fit the descriptions I offered I’d figure out how to prevent them from offering their opinions. I just offered the descriptions of what my experiences have been to try to explain why I am reluctant to accept the “dom” classification at this time. To be clear I’ve met some truly decent people that identified as dom or sub, but the two (Decent and D/s) seemed coincidental at best. I’m disillusioned with D/s because I’ve met so many involved that were in no way decent people and I had expected so much more. Actually Greengirl, I was excited to see you comment, because I get the impression from your blog you've not absolutely made up your mind where you fit either. I thought maybe you would more easily identify with my feelings of not being certain what to call myself, although I might be mistaken about that.
Jz,
Sweepingizations?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.............I think I like it. With your permission I might use that one myself sometime. But fair enough to wait. I didn't expect any quick answers. Or even any solid answers at all. Just opinions and suggestions on where to look for them.
MC,
I aplogize for misunderstanding your comments. I think i have a very different frame of reference from you. For me the labels dominant and submissive are really adjectives for ways of relating among people. So - you are correct that I am very much trying to figure out what is what - but for me that means trying to figure out what is worth fitting into my life, not how my life might fit into some outside framework.
I had mentioned that we are reluctant to use the terms dominant and submissive. This is related partly to not fully understanding ourselves at this point, and partly to not knowing all the implications of those words.
I will be interested in following your thoughts here - you seem, from your descriptions, to have a very fortunate thing going, whatever you call it.
Magnus Cattus Sir,
I guess I'm weird, I use my own (mostly) common sense when I use a label, such as Dominant, submissive, and further on with Sir or Master.
I will say that I never used the "but I like him" line, I always used the equally annoying, he needs me.
Wasn't it Shakespeare that said To think own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.
I dunno...
mouse
Greengirl,
No apology necessary and no offense taken. :) But here's the part of all this that confuses me, so I ask you to help me understand. Accepting that you use the words dominant and submissive as adjectives, what do the terms mean? If a man is a dominant man, what do you want me to understand about that man that differentiates him from a non-dominant man?
As to your question about where would you find the accepted Dogma, exactly my point. There isn't any is there? Because there are no definitions. There is a dogma PREACHED. After all, we all know a dominant is supposed to protect his submissive, put his or her best interests first, and all those clichéd things. But there is no interest in adhering to those supposed values. When those values are obviously ignored, and even spit upon, nothing happens. There are no consequences.
So here's the issue I am exploring, part of which I think you reiterated as your own. Where do I fit in? Why do I like these things. What have others experienced that might guide me? People tell me I am "dominant" but it seems to be a meaningless word because, well, what does it mean really? You say "... we are reluctant to use the terms dominant and submissive. This is related partly to not fully understanding ourselves at this point, and partly to not knowing all the implications of those words." Right! And what implications can there be to descriptive terms with no meaning? Why NOT use them, when you can invent the definition and meaning to suit yourself, and change that definition at any time it pleases you?
Mouse,
You say you use your common sense when you use a label. So what do you do when a woman you meet identifies as "submissive" and then behaves rudely, defiantly, and disrespectfully to her supposed "dom" publicly? Do you still refer to her as a submissive? Do you, as a submissive, identify in any way with her? Do you resemble her at all, or feel she represents any part of what you cherish about the way you live? Do you feel her "dom" represents in any way all the things Omega provides for you?
One part of all this is that if I AM a dominant and my ladies submissives, then these other people are lying to the world about what WE are. The discrimination and isolation we all deal with every day has in part nothing to do with how WE live, but with what these pretenders do, and what they say about the labels they use. I don't like being punished for things that are not true. I don't like overlooking abuse I know is going on, and I don't like being derided for my decades-old relationship (Which is better and more satisfying and joyful to all involved than any other relationship I know) by people that have relationships MONTHS long because I say things like "please" and "thank you" to my Ladies because that supposedly is not "dominant". I may well be a judgemental bastard, but I am better than these people, My Ladies are better than these people, and I believe you, Omega, and everyone else that actually lives up to the cliche's are better than these people. One of the many things I hope to resolve with this blog and it's comments is that I don't understand why people like you tolerate people like them.
I really am not sure I am one who can help you. But – to answer your question – my (extraordinarily limited) understanding of dominance and submission has to do only with how people within a relationship relate to one another. In our case it happens to be just me and my husband. In short – I like for him to be in charge, in control in certain situations and he likes to and does take that control. So – I consider myself submissive and him dominant. To ME – what differentiates this use of the word from its generic meanings (dominant gene, dominant trait, etc.) is that we have agreed to this arrangement expressly. I can’t answer your non-dominant man question – no other man has this arrangement with me. Obviously other men (and women) have this sort of arrangement with their partners, or have had, or hope to; I would assume that makes them dominant in the same way my husband is. And we adhere to values and place the others’ best interests first because we love one another, plain and simple. There is no one else to judge or moderate us.
What it boils down to is that for me – it is just the two of us. You clearly have experience (seems like bad ones) with a community of people. All I can say is that any human enterprise, no matter how noble in concept, is subject to pettiness, ego, greed, pride, and all the other lovely human traits. It’s an age old story: churches, organized religion, charities, academic institutions, sports teams, take your pick. Pardon me for being so direct – but it seems that your disillusionment is with a very fallible human institution. In the end – it can’t dictate or even impact how you conduct your relationships unless you let it. And you three can build whatever you want, no matter what you do or don’t call it.
Magnus Sir,
I've gone back and forth here a few times, I want to reply, I really do but just can't find my words!
the submissive that behaves badly or rudely, I might call her sub but I might not call him (her Dom or Master) Sir. I
Then again I might call her mom. Okay, I wouldn't do that either. It's more than that though. It's instinct.
When I wrote that I use common sense, to me that's what it is. People I don't know on a personal level I dismiss as background noise. If knew that sub I'd probably already have a good idea of what she is, and what her dynamic entails. I reserve the title of whatever to those who I believe deserve it.
this sounds silly and arrogant. I'm not like really.
mouse
Mouse,
I don't consider you arrogant and certainly not silly! The point of this blog is to get honest opinions for my own consideration, so please don't feel inhibited. I have gotten several points of view, and I think what I'm seeing is that most people are willing and able to ignore the users and the wannabes. I just have a hard time with that. What I experienced when I was younger and what I had believed was true, was that this was in great part a return to chivalry and what I've lately heard refferred to as "Natural Order". I don't believe it's neccessarily "Natural" that it be the woman that submits, but it seems one valid choice. In any event, what I believe is that the obeissance of the submissive partner (Whatever the gender) should be based on trust and respect earned through loyalty and dedication to principle on the part of the dominant partner. I had simply hoped to find a place in the world where that was true beyond the walls of my own home.
Magnus Sir,
Okay I'll say it...this lifestyle should be about honor, common sense, honesty and trust. Each is important and each should be given equal weight. It's not anymore. I don't know what it is. Yeah I do, it's about justifying yourself. It's about changing the rules to fit the changing times. The problem as I see it is that people don't look beyond it. Sometimes the rules shouldn't change, sometimes they should stay the same because they were right. Sometimes they use their position to intimidate, mentally destroy or however else they chose to get their rocks off. It doesn't make it right but they will justify it and if you don't agree...well then you have the problem not them. I got enough of that crap from Alpha.
If a man is a dick, then he's a dick, and putting Sir, Master or Dom to his name doesn't change it. It just makes him one of *those* dicks. Same for the obnoxious sub or the more subtle ones that lie behind their Master's backs.
It also doesn't diminish in anyway what you know to be the truth about you. Your character, integrity, is still there; you are intact.
mouse
this is only a test
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